Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes???

______________________________________________________________________ Can someone on this board help me out by explaining to me if my furnace is operating properly? The builders heating contractor is totally stumped and doesnt return my calls anymore. He doesnt think there is anything wrong with it and its operating normally. I disagree with him and would like for someone to either tell me Im right or wrong, and if Im right, how do I fix it. I recently moved into a new home in New Jersey and the heating contractor installed the Heil Furnace, Model Number N9MP1125J20A3. The house has the following building characteristics taken from the blueprint: No. Stories: 1 story home Hgt. Of Struct: 28 3 ft. Total Volume: 44,040 cu. ft. 1St Floor Living Area: 2459 sq. ft. Garage: 788 sq. ft. Porch: 423 sq. ft. Total 1st floor Area: 3670 sq. ft. Total Living Area: 2459 sq. ft. Total Bldg. Area: 3670 sq. ft. The best way I could come up with to document the operation of the furnace was to record the operation of it over a small time period. I accomplished this a while ago by monitoring 1 hour and 11 minutes on January 7, 2004, starting at 10:45 PM. The inside thermostat was set at 70 Fahrenheit, and the outside temperature was 28 Fahrenheit. Table 1-1 documents my results. Table 1-1: Time Time Difference Minutes Action Description 10:45 PM 0 Furnace Starts-up Not Blowing Heat 10:47 PM 2 Furnace Blower Starts Blowing Heat 10:52 PM 5 Furnace Shutdown Stops Blowing Heat 10:55 PM 3 Furnace Starts-Up Not Blowing Heat 10:57 PM 2 Furnace Stops Diagnostic Code: 6 Flashes + 1 Flash 11:05 PM 7 Furnace Starts-up Not Blowing Heat 11:07 PM 2 Furnace Stops Diagnostic Code: 6 Flashes + 1 Flash 11:15 PM 8 Furnace Starts-up Not Blowing Heat 11:17 PM 2 Furnace Blower Starts Blowing Heat 11:24 PM 7 Furnace Shutdown Stops Blowing Heat 11:26 PM 2 Furnace Starts-up Not Blowing Heat 11:28 PM 2 Furnace Blower Starts Blowing Heat 11:34 PM 6 Furnace Shutdown Stops Blowing Heat 11:38 PM 4 Furnace Starts-up Not Blowing Heat 11:39 PM 1 Furnace Blower Starts Blowing Heat 11:44 PM 5 Furnace Shutdown Stops Blowing Heat 11:50 PM 6 Furnace Starts-up Not Blowing Heat 11:51 PM 1 Furnace Blower Starts Blowing Heat 11:56 PM 5 Furnace Shutdown Stops Blowing Heat In summary, the operation of the furnace includes the following symptoms: Furnace cycles on and off very often. Furnace displays the following diagnostic codes: 6 Flashes and 1 Flash Two bedrooms are colder than other rooms of the house. Air seems stale at times. Basement temperature seems very warm considering it is not been heated. Excessive dust within the house, yet the furnace filter is very clean. Any comments would be greatly appreciated! Thank You, Mark V. MV Replies: beginner “Re(1):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Fri 30 Apr 08:06 ______________________________________________________________________ Open up the cover and look for the legend. It is usually printed on the cover. Xenos Webmaster “Re(1):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Thu 29 Apr 20:58 ______________________________________________________________________ I wish I had access to those codes but I bet the temperature difference across the heat exchanger is too high or its a venting problem as these are the most common. P.S. The codes are the answer the furnace knows whats wrong. Xenos. The best way to escape a problem is to solve it. vassalotti “Re(2):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Fri 30 Apr 11:17 ______________________________________________________________________ I have the diagnostic codes at home. However, I remember I showed the installer the codes and he didnt understand what they meant. All I remember the installer doing after I showed him the codes was that he checked that the drain line wasnt clogged inside the furnace, and that it was draining toward the pump. I will post the codes on Monday, and maybe someone can tell me what they really mean. Thanks, MV MV Apprentice “Re(2):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Fri 30 Apr 09:45 ______________________________________________________________________ Heil is using White Rogers modules and the code legend is printed on the module. vassalotti “Re(3):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Fri 30 Apr 11:37 ______________________________________________________________________ I showed the installer the diagnostic codes and the recommend resolutions via the booklet. Being a software engineer, I thought that it would be very simple to fix the problem. However, the installer just looked puzzled and didnt even try all of the recommend solutions. He just checked the drain line to the pump. I even called the company directly and they assigned me a service representative. But the service representative wont really talk to me, the homeowner, without getting the installer involved. The installer doesnt return any phone calls anymore, and Im stuck right in the middle of all this. I started my own research on the web, and thats how I came across this site. Im trying to get good, honest advice on what to do next???? Thank you, MV MV Xenos Webmaster “Re(4):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Fri 30 Apr 16:34 ______________________________________________________________________ Now thats a scary thought. The installer is lost, what was the code listed as ? its normally posted on the door. If it’s a White Rodgers ignitor what is the ignitor model mumber? 50A? Xenos. The best way to escape a problem is to solve it. vassalotti “Re(5):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Mon 3 May 11:51 ______________________________________________________________________ I dont know what igniter I have, but the led status is for a Honeywell SV9541M SMART VALUE. MV vassalotti “Re(5):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Mon 3 May 11:45 ______________________________________________________________________ Xenos Listed Below is the Heil Diagnostic Codes: My system indicates 6 Flashes + 1 Flash, and on occasion, 6 Flashes + 2 Flashes. Does this table make any sense to you??? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. LED STATUS 6 Flashes + 1 Flash INDICATES Soft Lockout Failed to light pilot during 90 sec. Trial for ignition Combustion air blower is de-energized. Circulation blower is de-energized after the OFF delay After 5-minute delay time, control system will reset and initiate a new ignition sequence. CHECK/REPAIR Gas supply off or pressure too low or high for appliance to operate. Damaged or broken HIS element. Line voltage HOT lead wire not connected to L1 Terminal on ST9160B. Furnace not properly earth grounded. Flame sense rod contaminated or in incorrect position. Pilot burner lead wires are in good condition and properly connected. Pilot burner located in incorrect position. Pressure switch operation, tubing, and wiring LED STATUS 6 Flashes + 2 Flashes INDICATES Soft Lockout Last Failure was Flame Sense lost during run. Combustion air blower is de-energized. Circulating blower is de-energized after the OFF delay. After 5-minute delay time, control system will reset and initiate a new ignition sequence. CHECK/REPAIR Gas supply off or pressure too low or high for appliance to operate. Line voltage HOT lead wire not connected to L1 Terminal on ST9160B. Furnace not properly earth grounded. Flame sense rod contaminated or in incorrect position. Pilot burner lead wires are in good condition and properly connected. Pilot burner located in incorrect position. Cycling, pressure switch Condensate drain blocked Pressure switch operation, tubing, and wiring. Thank you MV Xenos Webmaster “Re(6):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Mon 3 May 17:47 ______________________________________________________________________ clean / sand the flame sensor, look for a single rod/wire that sits in the flame infront of the last burner. Xenos. The best way to escape a problem is to solve it. streeter “Re(7):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Mon 3 May 22:27 ______________________________________________________________________ If this did it since you had the furnace installed I would check the polarity issues. I would also check the distance between the vent pipes, which is more probable its sucking its exhaust and thats why you aint getting the pressure switch openclue. vassalotti “Re(8):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Mon 3 May 23:28 ______________________________________________________________________ The furnace did it from day one. The installer indicated to me that this furnace is a single pipe model and it has no intake pipe for fresh air. He said it uses air from within the house to create its combustion. I did check the distance of the exhaust pipe, and it is within the standard by a few feet. MV streeter “Re(8):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Mon 3 May 22:29 ______________________________________________________________________ And yes, the table does make sense. In one instance the process is killed before recognition of the process. In the other 6/2 the proces has been started before it is killed. Apprentice “Re(9):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes?” , posted Tue 4 May 09:51 ______________________________________________________________________ Heil also used smart valves. This is the system you have. The flame sense rod is incorporated within the pilot assembly and almost impossible to clean. It takes a special wiring harness to even check the flame sense signal because it plugs into the gas valve. It was like pulling teeth for me to get one from the factory, almost a year. This one may take a bit of time to track down if you’re unfamilier with the system or lack skills or test equipment. The time to test it is when its in lockout to see where you dropped what power. You could jump the PS to see if it shuts down that way, if not change the ps but do confirm the vacuum reading of the IDM first and clean the hose port which sometimes get fuzzballs behind the connection and needs a pipe cleaner ran through it to clean it. The gas valves had a bad run awhile back, if you wiggled the connectors at the gas valve and it shut down then it would need replaced. The vent height termination is another possibility, if not above the peak of the roof the wind can turbulate against the roof and interfere with the venting and drop out the ps. You might even be dropping power at the board before the gas valve. If all this is greek to you then you probably need to bring in a pro who is familier with the smart valve system and has the proper test apparatus. Personally, I think it sounds like you got one of the bad gas valves which do this crap intermittantly due to bad solder joints on the circut board withion the gas valve. But I’m not there to check it so who knows. I could track it down quickly if I was there, having the test harnesses etc.. I think the smart valve system was Honeywells ha-ha to the industry but it is a good system and easy to diagnose if you’re familier with the ins & outs of it. Good luck. vassalotti “Re(10):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic codes” , posted Tue 4 May 10:57: ______________________________________________________________________ Thanks Apprentice for all that information. After reading your message, Im assuming that a good technician would be able to troubleshoot my system. Im going to try to locate one within my area. By the way, do you know of anybody in Southern New Jersey, zip code 08360? Also, my system is vented on the side of the house, not at the roof. MV [this message was edited by vassalotti on Tue 4 May 11:01] Apprentice “Re(2):Re(10):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic” , posted Wed 5 May 10:00 ______________________________________________________________________ No Jersy contacts. I need a vacation though, wanna fly me in?;>) vassalotti “Re(3):Re(10):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic” , posted Wed 5 May 16:06 ______________________________________________________________________ I wish I could! Hopefully Ill be able to find someone local that supports Heil Furnaces. Ill call the manufacture to find someone in the area trained in diagnostics of the Honeywell SMART VALVE. Thanks Again MV Streeter “Re(4):Re(10):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic” , posted Wed 5 May 19:54 ______________________________________________________________________ I believe apprentice is talking about the sv9500 gas valves. Yes, they had the problems he is talking about. Your machine is NOT using that gas valve and I have yet to have heard nor experienced problems with the new valve. Ok, the oxygen thing is not applicable because you are only using one pipe. Unless of course this is in a closet or somewhere where it can not get fresh combustion air. Your table/post is very descriptive yet not relevant because it really all depends on what the flame/motors are doing. but, after reviewing your original post again I guess it looks like only 2 times did it ever error on lost flame. The rest of your post makes it look like heat anticipator. Almost like your thermostat is set to too many cycles per hour. You are roughly running 6min to 8min cycles. There are no errors after the initial 2. Take the bottom door off. Remove either the wire connected to the R terminal or the wire connected to the W terminal. Then take another wire (you provide) and connect the two terminals together. (please re-read this to make sure you follow). You are in effect removing the thermostat and making a jumper across the heating terminals of the furnace. If you are satisfied with this, put the bottom door back on and check the operation and post here(with reference to flame and motors running). It is more important what is happening to the pilot, the burners, the vent motor, and the indoor blower motor and at what times. If it never shuts off, then you need to access your thermostat manual and set cycles/hour to a more acceptable number. You could do this first but for me the way I wrote is faster and guarantees a result. vassalotti “Re(5):Re(10):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic” , posted Thu 6 May 09:33: ______________________________________________________________________ I would love to try your suggestions, however, Im afraid if I do the builder might try to say I messed it up. Im trying to get the builder and the installer to fix it under warranty. The system is less than six months old. If I cant get someone to look it again within the first year of service, I might try to troubleshoot it myself. I do have a question about the oxygen thing? My house has 1 inches of foam board (Dryvit) all the way around it and every window has high efficient glass. There is only one attic fan install on the roof, no vents, and there are two attic access doors located in the house; one in the master bedroom closet, the other in the garage. The furnace is located in the basement, which is isolated from the first floor by a door, and the basement is approximately 2500sq feet. This house is very, very airtight. There even seems to be some kind of pressure imbalance within the house. When I opened the door to the garage it is like a vacuum is pulling it shut. If I let go of the garage door, it will shut itself with some kind of suction. Maybe Im thinking too much about all this stuff and it is driving me nuts. But that is just how I am. My first thoughts when I heard that this furnace was a single pipe was that it wasnt getting enough oxygen and it was shutting down, or over heating over time. The installer said that this is not the case as there is plenty of oxygen. Do you think Im thinking this out to far, or is there something really there??? Thanks, MV [this message was edited by vassalotti on Thu 6 May 09:44] Streeter “Re(6):Re(10):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic” , posted Thu 6 May 20:28: ______________________________________________________________________ Your local building codes will determine the correct installation procedures. If you have doubt call your city building/heating inspectors. If your installer is not there within a day or two call your local heil distributor. I can guarantee you they will not put up with the service you have described. The larger problem would be downdraft through a naturally vented waterheater etc. The furnace could produce enough negative pressure to draw the CO back down through chimney. And yes it is very possible you have a negative pressure on your house due to appliances like your furnace, bath vents, etc. Again, I do not notice error codes for the last 4 cycles of your table. If this is correct I would check into your thermostat settings(if you are uncomfortable with my suggestions)and look into cycles or temperature offsets. [this message was edited by Streeter on Thu 6 May 22:01] vassalotti “Re(7):Re(10):Heil Furnace problems/diagnostic” , posted Fri 7 May 16:51 ______________________________________________________________________ The table is correct. The last 4 cycles did not have any errors. It was just cycling a lot. I think I will check my thermostat settings. I’m assuming that you can program the number of cycles per hour, or something like that… THanks again, MV

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